[Podcast] Japanese technology to supercharge human fertility (Part 2)

Japan’s declining birth rate makes global headlines, but most of the developed world will soon be facing the same problem.

The real solution involves a lot of social and economic changes, but as you’ll see, technology has a huge role to play as well.

Today we sit down and talk with Kaz Kishida, CEO of Dioseve, about how their technology promises to transform IVF, the rapid timeline for global rollout, and safety issues and ethnical questions involved.

It’s a great conversation, and I think you’ll enjoy it.

Welcome to Disrupting Japan, Straight Talk from Japan’s most innovative founders and VCs.

I’m Tim Romero and thanks for joining me.

Today we’re going to talk about making babies.

Now, this is not something that startups or startup podcasts normally weighed into, but as you’ll see in this case, it makes a lot of sense.

Today we sit down with Kaz Kishida, co-founder and CEO of Dioseve. And Dioseve has developed a technique for growing mature human eggs from IPS cells. Now, this technology represents a huge step forward for IVF and for human fertility in general.

Some parts of Dioseve’s technology could be in commercial use as soon as next year.

Now, kaz, I dive deep into Dioseve’s technology and the potential good it can do and why some future babies will have three parents. We also cover the tricky ethical and safety issues involved, and we explore exactly why that, in spite of all Japan has going for it. The biotech startup ecosystem here is still facing challenges.

But, you know, Kaz, tells that story much better than I can.

So, let’s get right to the interview.

(Continued from the previous part)

Tim: So, what are the main sort of safety concerns around this kind of a technology?

Kaz: The biggest one is genetic manipulation from their natural born babies. But fortunately we have technologies to assess the situation of in genetic expression. So, we can precisely evaluate abnormality.

Tim: Okay, creating the mature eggs from stem cells is pretty amazing, and it has obvious applications to fertility treatments. So, I’m just curious, does the technology of other medical applications outside of fertility?

Kaz: Yes. We have. So one example possibly of topic, but we can use this for rejuvenation. So, we can reverse on the age of cells by using our eggs. So, this is very conceptual stage, so I can’t say, yes, we can do that. But the possibility exists here because egg has their ability to cure damage of cell DNA. So, when an egg and sperm are fertilized, their gene has their information of age, we don’t know the reason, but the baby is their age. Eggs have function to reverse the genetic expression status to the first stage.

Tim: Wow. That’s really amazing. Yeah. Holy Cow.

Kaz: Yeah. So currently, especially in the US and West coast, many startup companies are working on rejuvenation. And the main method is inducing genes into cells by using virus. But of course it is virus difficult to control. But if we can rejuvenate cells by using like real kit made from our onsite eggs, then it’s very easy to use.

Tim: Another thing I’m curious about, before you were talking about germ cells. So does that mean the same technology could be used to create sperm cells as well as eggs?

Kaz: Yes, that exists, but in human, not yet. But the fact is there is no technology that will be used in clinical situation in the near future.

Tim: It’s interesting, but not medically useful yet.

Kaz: Not yet, yeah.

Tim: In interviews that you and some of the team have given in the past, you talk frequently about ethical concerns. So, what exactly are the ethical concerns that are involved with this kind of research and these kind of treatments?

Kaz: As for egg creation, the biggest one is safety. The criteria, if we apply this technology to clinic concentration or not, is the balance of benefit and risk. And if the risk is too high, then we can’t use it. And it’s not easy to assure the gene expression is totally the same with a natural egg. So, it is very provocative topic.

Tim: But is that a matter of just efficacy or is that an actual ethical question?

Kaz: Ethics is very close to safety because the problem is if a baby was born, possibly the baby will have disorder, and who is responsible for that disorder? Possibly the baby. Possibly the parent. But the person who will suffer is the baby. So, problem is safety. Safety comes first. After that, possibly people will say, okay, if we can create eggs, women can have their baby regardless of their age, possibly women in their sixties, but is it okay. So, that kind of ethical issues will be raised, but I think the most important point is the safety of the baby.

Tim: Now, I know that, well, there’s certainly no international consensus on it. In the US over the years, there’s been a lot of people who are concerned about any research that involves stem cells. There’s been recent international condemnation of some of the research in China that’s been done on genetic manipulation. What’s the general attitude in Japan towards genetic research and stem cell research in general?

Kaz: I have to say we’re conservative, but fortunately these days the regulation is relaxed. So before time, we were not allowed to fertilize IPS cell derived germ cells like egg or sperm. But now the government about to admit that kind of research just for research use.

Tim: And was that just because they weren’t sure that it could develop safely? What was the ethical concern?

Kaz: The ethical concern is that the embryo, the fertilized eggs is the potential baby. And can we create potential baby artificially? There is a concept of the ethical problem, and the point is, okay, we create artificial embryo and we will use this for research. And in 14 days, we needed to destroy that embryo because that embryo can’t be a child. So, we need to destroy. So, is it okay to do this just for research? So, the government these days started to say, if we can get insight from that research, yeah, that’s beneficial. And we can admit to create artificial embryo from IPS cell derived germ cells. So, there is progress in terms of ethics.

Tim: Looking forward, not only from a research point of view, but from a corporate go-to market point of view. So, this is a long road to walk here. So, what do you see as the main steps you need to take to bring this to market?

Kaz: The market we are aiming to launch our technology is UK.

Tim: Why UK?

Kaz: Historically, UK has led reproductive treatment industry. The first IVF was conducted in the US and after that, in 2015, they conducted mitochondrial replacement therapy. So, if woman has mitochondrial disease, the eggs also have not ideal mitochondria in their eggs and mitochondrial disease will be inherited to their baby. But we can replace the mitochondria with other normal healthy mitochondria, then the baby won’t have mitochondrial disease. But the problem is, that means the baby have three parents. One father and one mother and one mitochondrial donor mother. So, it is ethically problematic. And the many people said it’s not acceptable, but the UK government said, okay, people did that in mice and monkeys and no disorders. Okay, there are many people suffer from mitochondrial disease. Why not we use this for human. And the government officially admitted mitochondrial replacement therapy MRT as a law. So, their progress is huge. So yeah, historically the UK has led their industry. So, I think UK is the best place to realize our technology.

Tim: In terms of identifying a market. That makes total sense. It might be the only market ready for it now, but Dioseve as a company, what are the steps you have to go through before you can bring this to market?

Kaz: We can’t directly dive into the egg creation market. We need to take steps. And the first step is to create ovarian cells and deliver healthy children. And after earning credit from doctors all over the world, we have right to work on egg creation. At that time, we will be prepared for many data about safety.

Tim: The ovarian cell creation, would that be in support of traditional IVF treatments?

Kaz: Yes, yes, yes. It’s even supporting cell, but not just support, but alternate all the IVF procedure, because current IVF entails very tough treatment journey, injecting hormone every day for 10 days and more than six times, and they need to go to hospital. But we can and deliver our artificial ovarian cells, the patients don’t need to use their ovaries. They can use our created ovaries to mature eggs, so they don’t need to get hormone injection. We can reduce more than 80% of hormone injection.

Tim: So, how many years out is that?

Kaz: Yeah, we are aiming to commercialize this next year.

Tim: Next year?

Kaz: Yes.

Tim: That would be amazing. I mean, but don’t you have to go through several stages of clinical trials and things?

Kaz: No, no. Not in Japan. We already consulted with PMDA and they said our product is not the medicine, but medium.

Tim: Alright. It’s all outside the body. Right. Oh, right, of course.

Kaz: Yes, yes, yes. But of course, we have to assure safety by ourselves. So, we are planning many experiments and we will conduct this by step by step.

Tim: Oh, fantastic. So, the plan is to build up both reputation and income through the ovarian sales market, and that’ll give you the time and the credibility to build up the newer more challenging and experimental.

In Part 3, we will discuss the current state and challenges of Japan’s biotech startup ecosystem, as well as the structural barriers behind them.

Top photo: Envato

Click here for the Japanese version of the article